Former President Barack Obama said that President Joe Biden is “finishing the job” started by his administration.

Ezra Klein, the New York Times podcast’s host, questioned Obama about his approach to persuasion and how he was able to appeal to such a wide audience. Obama revealed his technique for winning arguments and developing the ability to persuade others: one must “first be able to make the other person’s argument better than they can.” He connected this to the emergence of the Tea Party and his relationship with Donald Trump, as well as how he had to handle racial tensions being the first African American president of U.S. history.

“There were times where calling [racism] out would have given me great satisfaction personally,” he said. “But it wouldn’t have necessarily won the political day in terms of me getting a bill passed.”

Obama drew attention to Biden’s “good instincts” when it comes to handling political polarization in America. “I think people’s identities have become far more invested as a result in which side are you on politically. It spills over into everyday life, and even small issues that previously were not considered, even political issues,” he said.

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